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Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Debi's Doodles on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:20 pm

Michelle Heffner wrote:
modernmagik wrote:

This is not about people who are learning their skills or trying to improve, or even just need specific ideas for a themed event. It is about someone selling a service that they don't already provide, then trying to get people who have put in the dedication to learn these things already to bail them out of the jam they got themselves into.

Is that right, Michelle?

Right on the button, Lisa.

When I wanted to be a makeup artist, the forums out there were a treasure. But you couldn't just say "Hey! I have a big PAYING gig tomorrow and I have no clue what to do!!"

There was professional courtesy. You waited until you were ready, you practiced like a MoFo and THEN you were ready to start accepting $$.

~Michelle

amen.

I had someone email me directly asking me for my designs and step-by-steps for all of them! I was...uuuuuh.. *delete*. There was no name on the email but I am assuming it was from someone who registered here cause this is the only place I post a "step-by-step" for the contests only. I like to help out newbies or when an oldie needs a fresh idea but straight out asking for your pics or designs?! Come on... Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Magic on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:27 pm

me too - and I told him he would have to pay me or do his own research. He must have gone down the line. See the thing is there are more people reading these posts that aren't active and don't share so I don't really want to train people for free, I share much more in person. The newbies would also benefit from seeking out a local guild and seeing stuff done in person.
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Debi's Doodles on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:36 pm

hmmmm..wonder if its more then one person doing this?? cause I couldn't tell from the email if it was a "him" or "her". Unless you found out after you replied...I just deleted, I didn't have the time to answer at the moment honestly. Although, "No" wouldn't of taken that long Razz .


Last edited by Debi's Doodles on Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Magic on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:37 pm

I asked for a name
thought it was a bit odd
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Michelle Heffner on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:39 pm

Magic wrote: It's the reactions I find so interesting.

Thank you, doll.

You know, I find that interesting as well. But I am glad that a discussion was started and it wasn't just a "Hmm.. yes, you're right" kind of discussion.

And Suzy - I'm embarassed about this but I didn't even read your post about the chocolate designs. Sorry man, but at least you can trust that I wasn't throwing a poke at you!

I also like to know I'm not taking crazy pills here. I'm not the only one seeing what's happening.

~Michelle (Heff)
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by SuzySparkles on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:46 pm

Michelle Heffner wrote:
Magic wrote: It's the reactions I find so interesting.
And Suzy - I'm embarassed about this but I didn't even read your post about the chocolate designs. Sorry man, but at least you can trust that I wasn't throwing a poke at you!

good, now go design something chocolatey for me Smile
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by JBax on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:12 pm

lol @ Suzy

I hate to say it, but I kinda expected this to happen when we had a ton of new users (not necessarily new painters). You see it in a lot of larger forums like this one is becoming.

It's not about new people asking advise and guidance. I've learned so much from everyone here. And it's not about the old people being elitist. Everyone here is here because they are willing to learn and share knowledge.

People not willing to put in the effort devalues the craft for everyone. The "craft paint hooker across the street" is not much different if she only goes and buys the right kind of paint.
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Michelle Heffner on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:14 pm

JBax wrote:The "craft paint hooker across the street"

I need this on a t-shirt. Like right now. I really love that phrase.

~Michelle (Heff)
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by modernmagik on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:18 pm

You should get a shirt that says

"Don't confuse me with the craft paint hooker across the street just because I like to get paid!!!"

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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by JBax on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:23 pm

Wow! I made a catch phrase! Oh, that woman! She charged $1.00, took my business, and used craft paint. She also had really bushy hair, but that's going personal. I had to reduce my rate to compete!

I like whoever said "We Fix Free Facepainting"... was it Metina?
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by modernmagik on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:43 pm

For her, you could change it to "We fix CHEAP face painting!!!"

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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Magic on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:46 pm

I think I am a glitter whore- should I start a new thread?
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Perry Noia on Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:00 pm

well... I was doing gigs before I was face painting... but I didn't offer face painting until after I practised at home a lot and did ONE free gig... then decided that was crappy and refused to ever do a free gig again. You definitely need to do your research.... and as much as I HATE to say it (because I want to be just as good as some of you guys) for some reason, it seems to be allowed for clowns to be not quite as good as exclusive face painters. Probably because we do the "jack of all trades" kind of thing with so many skills to master.

That being said, I think all beginners need to take some time with one or two beginner face painting books and a lot of time looking at all the pictures on the Snazaroo US site.... at least for ideas. I firmly believe that everyone should add their own variation and style to EVERY design they see. Do some practising at home, on the neighbour's kids, etc... then jump on in.

I started clowning with an "Introductory Rate" that was lower than most with the reason clearly posted that I was "still relatively new and learning." I wasn't undercutting anyone intentionally, I just legitimately felt that I wasn't worth what the experienced clowns were worth at that point. When I had a few people telling me that I wasn't charging enough for my wonderful work, the introductory offer ended and I matched my prices to the middle of the road clowns in the area. I can't help but feel that any time someone does a gig for free, they are doing themselves and the profession a bit of a disservice. It spreads the word that someone will always be around to do it for nothing and people keep asking.
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by koolkatkiwi on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:17 pm

Debi and Margie - I see where you're coming from, now. I didn't realise there were private emails going on with these types of "hold my hand" and "show me everything" requests. I wasn't aware there was a lot of this going on.

"When you walk into a dojo or house of learning you do not get taken by the hand by the master and all the answers you want laid in front of you. There is a process to learning, and there is a reason why someone is a novice and some one is a master. I remember the line in Fame when Debi Allen said you get thru to the top in sweat in blood and right here is where you start paying."

This is good stuff, Margie. I agree wholeheartedly.

"Michelle is an accomplished painter and a great person and has explained where this comment came from. She also wanted to open a dialouge which is her perogative to do in an open forum. It's the reactions I find so interesting."

I certainly agree about Michelle's skill - I've looked at her stuff. I particularly love (among all the other stuff I love) the 3D halo done with glitter and then given a shadow to make it look 3D - so cool! However, I still don't get the sense of where the comment came from - nor do others on this thread, from their responses. Now that I see about these emails, there is obviously stuff going on behind the scenes that I and possibly others are not aware of.

I agree with what you've said here, but not necessarily the way you've said it. Perhaps responding to these sinners gently and pointing out the error of their ways might be in order. I think you can scare potentially good people away by being too harsh. We've all made mistakes - we all appreciate some slack being cut from time to time.

I'm now looking back and wondering "did I ask for too much help" and stuff like that. It reminds me of times when the teacher kept us all in because somebody did something wrong and wouldn't own up. We all felt guilty.

Just my two cents worth. Shoot me down if you like.

Kat I love you
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Perry Noia on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:28 pm

I'm sure they weren't referring to you dear...

It's more likely the people who come on occasionally, post once or twice and their only post is "I have my first gig tomorrow, what paints should I buy...etc" that are just ridiculous. I had someone walk up to me at the farmer's market last year where I was painting and said, "I'm painting at such-and-such and event next month for FREE (which incidently I had been asked to give a quote for) and I was wondering what kind of paint you use?" Seriously?? They turned down my offer to give them a percentage of pay per face for THAT???

They're just saying that no one should be taking a "GIG" before they have already gotten some paints and practised with them in some way. Have a clue what you're doing other than getting the "Face Painting for Dummies" and painting crappy two stroke lady bugs on the kid's cheeks with craft paint. There are plenty of resources (this site being one of them) that can give everyone at least an idea of what is SAFE and the basics of what is expected of face painters.
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Tash on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:20 pm

I agree with you Kat....
I wondered if I had asked too much or something to warrant this thread.
I don't know if that is my bad self esteem or if the original post inferred it by being so general. It did make me feel bad, so I think your points were valid.
As much as Michelle probably didn't mean to make anyone feel bad - it did.
The further clarifications of whom the post was aimed at help to alleviate the bad feeling..... but I'm still apprehensive to ask for help again.
So it makes me wonder how many others felt this way too.

I have worked very hard to get to where I am in my business and I am very proud of it. I will continue to help people where ever I can because it was the help of others that has got me where I am.
That said I never asked anyone what paint to buy or how to apply it.
I did however use videos etc on the internet to learn and I am forever grateful for these.... my little way of repaying is by sharing what I know with newbies.
How long do you need to be working as a face painter before you can call yourself a professional?
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Perry Noia on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:35 pm

I don't think there's an issue with people asking what to buy or what to do with it... as long as they haven't already booked themself for an 8 hour painting gig for 500 kids.

A professional, by definition, is simply anyone getting paid to do what they are doing. How long, I think depends on the person. Some people catch on faster than others. I would say that when people who aren't your closest friends and family say, "hey, that's really good!" ... you're doing ok. Judging by the lovely flower in your avatar pic, I think you're good to go sweetie! Very Happy
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Michelle Heffner on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:42 pm

I think the fact that you are questioning your past actions means that you are specifically not what I am talking about.

You have a conscience. Hurray!

I just get so mad when I see so little thought given to taking money when painters are obviously not ready.

I consider professional to mean that you are ready to charge what other painters in your area charge. That's a debatable subject in itself though, fraught with definitions and caveats.

~Michelle
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:37 am

I knew exactly what Michelle was getting at. I've been stalked by FP vampires for years...

I get emails from complete strangers who ask, no DEMAND, that I provide them with designs, SBS, supplies lists, etc for a specific project.... happens a LOT for theatrical shows. Someone is working on The Wizard of OZ and see on my website that I did that show... so they want to to just send them my designs so that they can use them.... ah, EXCUSE ME????????????

1) Go copy the movie make-up...
2) I worked hard to come up with my original designs why should I GIVE them to you, someone I don't know, for free, simply because you want them?

Happens all the time...

I don't mind answering questions and sharing information... but, this stuff they are demanding is my hard work and I don't see why these people feel they have the right to expect it to just be handed over!!

I've been participating in chats and groups for over a decade now. I learned a lot from the more experienced painters over the years and like to share what I've learned with others - paying it back, so to speak. BUT... there is a limit.

If someone can't be bothered to Google a photo of an actual Leopard and/or Cheetah to copy then I certainly don't feel the need to jump in with an example of painted ones and explain it to them...

If you want to be a professional face painter you need to take responsibility to make sure that you are at a level where your work will be suitable to your customer's expectations. Whether it is buying books by artists (thereby actually paying them for their help!) or looking up real creatures and designing your own... or even using the free resources available by doing a simple Google search...

By all means, if it is a weird or difficult design ask the groups...

It is just the tone of entitlement that some of the people use when demanding things that gets some of us a little annoyed. Especially when we have shared ad naseum over the years...

You can begin to feel a little used, you know?

Guest
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Debi's Doodles on Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:49 am

koolkatkiwi wrote:Debi and Margie - I see where you're coming from, now. I didn't realise there were private emails going on with these types of "hold my hand" and "show me everything" requests. I wasn't aware there was a lot of this going on.

I'm now looking back and wondering "did I ask for too much help" and stuff like that. It reminds me of times when the teacher kept us all in because somebody did something wrong and wouldn't own up. We all felt guilty.

You're ok Kat Wink

I should have added to my post more details about the email I received. I don't mind at all being asked for help and such, its just the way people should ask at least. This email definatly rubbed me the wrong way because of the way it was asked. It was literally two sentances requesting for me to send them my designs and with step-by-steps.. no "please", no "thank you", no introduction with their situation or business info, not even a "hello" or name attached to the email. So thats why I responded with just deleting the email. If someone approches me in a polite & professional manner then I will be the same back and help with what I can....not send all my pics but still be nice about it. Razz
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Michelle Heffner on Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:53 am

Shannon Fennell wrote:
You can begin to feel a little used, you know?

Thank you Shannon.

I am not directing this comment at anyone, but sometimes "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

That's another T-shirt I need...

~Michelle (Heff)
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Painted Dragon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:55 am

Should I feel offended that the crazies haven't asked me for step by steps yet?

Surprised)

(And no, that isn't an invitation)
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:29 pm

I'm often tempted to wear purple pjs (that is what they dress the Psych patients in at the hospital) and wear a "daypass" hospital name tag...

And have printed on the back of the shirt "I'm okay, really, I took my meds this morning."

It would make a unique FP uniform dontcha fink?

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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Magic on Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:52 pm

I don't know how to phrase this properly -
Your self esteem has nothing to do with the value of your work. You pay $4 a gallon for milk from a happy and content cow as you do an insecure cow. Milk is milk.
Good work is good work.
If it's not good enough to sell you know.
If you are going to sell it ask the going rate.
If you don't ask the going rate you devalue my good work.
I have met painters that I have told to raise their prices because it warranted the increase even if their self esteem hadn't caught up yet. This is business you need to cover your costs and pay your bills - the bonus is that it's the best job in the world.
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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:19 pm

Not sure I get the context, Margie, in relation to what we were discussing - people who are NOT willing to do their own homework and EXPECT others to just hand them what they want.

Confidence in what YOU are doing is a different topic really... trying and not thinking you are good enough is a self-esteem issue, yes... but that wasn't what we were discussing... was it?

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Re: Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

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